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 [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?

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Fluttershy
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PostSubject: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:46 pm

I made this same post over on the SWTOR forums, but I know you don't all check the Smuggler forums there. My hope is to get some second opinions on this idea.

Quote :
Hey everyone, I have been toying with the idea of dropping a point or two in IA to place into the Sharpshooter talent so I can remove some accuracy off my gear in favor of surge. From my early parses while playing Dirty Fighting, I've found that 2/3 of the damage comes from critting abilities, whereas a Sabslinger has a pretty 50/50 split between crit and non-crit damage. This leads me to believe that pushing surge to its acceptable DR range (300-350 rating) would be worth adding one or two points into the Sharpshooter talent in order to drop a few accuracy enhancements.

I'm wondering if there is anyone around who has already tried this and could weigh in on the subject. If not I'll just have to test this myself when I get my hands on some better enhancements.

Just for reference, the only rotational abilities affected by IA is Sab Charge, XS Flyby, and the initial impact damage of Shrap Bomb (I think). Thermal Grenade and and Sweeping Gunfire are only used if there is a lot of trash that needs to be dealt with. IA does not effect the bleed damage of Shrap bomb in any way.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:49 pm

Even if the accuracy talent would be an increase in you single target DPS, there are still a lot of boss fights with multiple targets.

- EV: Gharj (<50% adds)
- KP: Jarg+Sorno - Crusher - Fabricator (stun droids) - Karagga
- EC: Those few times Toth+Zorn are together - SM tanks - Vorgath - Kephess (trandoshans)
- TfB: Writhing Horror - Dread Guard HM (for the adds) - Operator IX (dawn strat puts a ranged DPS in the middle during yellow so you kill the 2 champs faster) - Kephess (hitting both Kephess and the white orbs) - Terror (adds)

Not to mention the trash

Also XS Freighter and Sab charge have a long cd, making you use them in burst phases. Increasing their damage over your surge will increase your burst DPS.

I'd say keep IA.



Last edited by crazyBE on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:03 pm

Different post because it's about sharpshooter instead of DF


* +10 energy and 2 points into IA

* +4% alacrity + 3 seconds of Vital Shot + 12.5% to double tick


I rarely use Sab charge because it doesn't allow me to Trickshot or proc Quick Aim though.
Mostly use it when I'm about to Cool Head anyways
On the other hand +10 energy might allow me to have energy to spare for it...

Which one do you think is best for me?
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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:36 am

My thought is that DF's AoE capabilities are crap compared to the other two specs, so why waste points on something that's not worth it? DF shines with single-target combat not only because if its AoE restriction, but DF is terrible at switching targets. I have to keep a Sab Charge + Speed Shot combo ready for adds on Terror in phase 1 because I can't stack all my DOTs quick enough, plus it kills my energy pool when setting up for another target. If Shrap Bomb had a better range and effected more targets maybe I'd consider their AOE good, but for now XS is the only redeemable ability for DF AoE.

You do have a point about burst damage as Sab Charge and XS are a cornerstone to true Gunslinger burst in any spec. However, DoTs + Hemorrhaging Blast + Wounding Shots allows me to hit for over 10k in three seconds, upping the surge rating, even by a little, will help to compensate for this imbalance. This is even ore true since I can achieve that burst every 15 seconds while Sab Charge is every 30, and XS each minute. I can use the Hemorrhaging combo four times before I get to use another XS. I'm also not suggesting to drop all of IA's points as I can only see needing to drop two at most to reach DR with 63 rated surge enhancements.

Quote :
Different post because it's about sharpshooter instead of DF

* +10 energy and 2 points into IA
* +4% alacrity + 3 seconds of Vital Shot + 12.5% to double tick

I rarely use Sab charge because it doesn't allow me to Trickshot or proc Quick Aim though.
Mostly use it when I'm about to Cool Head anyways
On the other hand +10 energy might allow me to have energy to spare for it...

Which one do you think is best for me?
I used the "Traditional" SS build. The main reason I don't go for Vital Shot and it's upgrades is because I discovered, after parsing a ton, that using Vital Shot too much will actually lower your DPS. If Trickshot is not on CD 24/7 you're losing a fair amount of DPS, and throwing VS in kept me from using Trickshot due to the Global CD overlapping opportunities to use it ASAP. Don't put VS high on your priority list in a pure SS build, especially since the times you can use it is usually during fillers where you may be low on energy. The VS route might be better for fights that require high mobility, but in static 1v1 fights you will parse ~50 lower if you VS too often. Such is the crutch of the SS spec, it doesn't seem like it, but to max out your damage you really need to nail your rotation.

You also have to consider that your XS takes a second less to cast than other specs and is only on CD for 45 seconds, so that 10% to XS can be a significant DPS gain. Also, that extra +10 to energy is a must for PvE specs. It goes a long way, particularly with SS, as that margin synergies well with Foxhole.

On a side note, I'm actually toying with the idea of changing my set bonus to 2/4 Field Tech (Illegal Mods gives +10 Energy) and 2/4 Enforcer (+5 to energy). This seems odd, but the 4/4 of Field Tech only helps energy when the target is <30%, and that extra 5 energy on top of the 10 I get from my spec will actually provide a nice comfort zone as DF eats energy and has a hard time regaining it if the player didn't anticipate it well.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:43 am

Aren't we all just gonna adore free respecs =D.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:10 am

Derpy wrote:
Aren't we all just gonna adore free respecs =D.

nooo all the free respecs are MINE.
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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:03 am

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:11 pm

Yeah figured that might be the best way to go for SS.
Once you reach 50 Diversion and Aimed Shot knockback are crap.


Still wish there was a way to get Holed Up instead of Cover Screen though Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:31 pm

crazyBE wrote:
Yeah figured that might be the best way to go for SS.
Once you reach 50 Diversion and Aimed Shot knockback are crap.


Still wish there was a way to get Holed Up instead of Cover Screen though Crying or Very sad
Me too. Sad

I can't wait for free respecs as people on the TOR forums don't seem to be helping at all. Someone told me that IA is a must because it increases Shrap Bomb's total damage. I didn't think that it effected the bleed, but I will toy around with it come Thursday and see where it goes.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:29 am

Have you checked mmo-mechanics.com? I find them more useful than ToR forums, some stuff may be outdated though but I have no idea of Gunslinger changes since 1.4.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:35 am

Derpy wrote:
Have you checked mmo-mechanics.com? I find them more useful than ToR forums, some stuff may be outdated though but I have no idea of Gunslinger changes since 1.4.
I have looked around there a lot and read most of the Sniper/Gunslinger resources but most of the stuff hasn't been changed since 1.2, so I'm not sure if I can completely trust what's still up there are BioWare has done some stealth patches to class mechanics. I'm just safer testing it out on my own and reporting my findings.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:31 am

Fluttershy wrote:
crazyBE wrote:
Yeah figured that might be the best way to go for SS.
Once you reach 50 Diversion and Aimed Shot knockback are crap.


Still wish there was a way to get Holed Up instead of Cover Screen though Crying or Very sad
Me too. Sad

I can't wait for free respecs as people on the TOR forums don't seem to be helping at all. Someone told me that IA is a must because it increases Shrap Bomb's total damage. I didn't think that it effected the bleed, but I will toy around with it come Thursday and see where it goes.


Well come free respecs: toss 1 Shrap Bomb and see your damage.
Then put the points into IA and toss 1 Shrap Bomb again =p
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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:07 am

crazyBE wrote:
Fluttershy wrote:
crazyBE wrote:
Yeah figured that might be the best way to go for SS.
Once you reach 50 Diversion and Aimed Shot knockback are crap.


Still wish there was a way to get Holed Up instead of Cover Screen though Crying or Very sad
Me too. Sad

I can't wait for free respecs as people on the TOR forums don't seem to be helping at all. Someone told me that IA is a must because it increases Shrap Bomb's total damage. I didn't think that it effected the bleed, but I will toy around with it come Thursday and see where it goes.


Well come free respecs: toss 1 Shrap Bomb and see your damage.
Then put the points into IA and toss 1 Shrap Bomb again =p
That's the plan, watch the numbers go! Tooltips cannot be trusted.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:51 am

Now that we have free respecs, I did a little testing with Shrap Bomb and Independent Anarchy.

Here were the general rules:
  • Shrap Bomb was applied 10 times.
  • Shrap Bomb's bleed ran all the way through each apply.
  • Exotech skill stim, all class buffs, and identical gear were used for each parse.
  • No debuffs were used on the target.

Without Independent Anarchy: W/o IA Spec
Tooltip Screenshot - Parse

Overall Damage: 38039

With 3/3 Independent Anarchy: With IA Spec
Tooltip Screenshot - Parse

Overall Damage: 42792

The difference between the parses are with Independent Anarchy I did 12.4% more damage than without it, this is even with the without IA test critting about 4% more than the with IA test.

Verdict: Sacrificing points in Independent Anarchy for Sharpshooter would be a loss in DPS due to the significant dip in damage with your second biggest damage dealer.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:19 am

Back to your original question then. From the parse it owuld seem that IA affects the bleeds of Sharp Bomb.

Have you tried using a full rotation/spec in a parse? That may help you better ascertain the overall effect rather than just testing Sharp Bomb on its own. You were also wondering if you can get more acc from the tree so you can get more surge. Have you tried changing gear?

Also how do you get torparse to only show 1 fight? Did you log in between parses to get a new file?

Also can you describe the different specs? So far I understand

Sharpshooter: ?
Saboteur: AoE
DF: Single Target

I know a Sniper in APEX is running Engineering/Lethality Hybrid and is second highest DPS after a Marauder and has to be guarded.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:24 pm

Derpy wrote:
Back to your original question then. From the parse it owuld seem that IA affects the bleeds of Sharp Bomb.

Have you tried using a full rotation/spec in a parse? That may help you better ascertain the overall effect rather than just testing Sharp Bomb on its own. You were also wondering if you can get more acc from the tree so you can get more surge. Have you tried changing gear?

Also how do you get torparse to only show 1 fight? Did you log in between parses to get a new file?

Also can you describe the different specs? So far I understand

Sharpshooter: ?
Saboteur: AoE
DF: Single Target

I know a Sniper in APEX is running Engineering/Lethality Hybrid and is second highest DPS after a Marauder and has to be guarded.

Well snipers are the 2nd/3rd highest dps class in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:19 pm

Derpy wrote:
Back to your original question then. From the parse it owuld seem that IA affects the bleeds of Sharp Bomb.

Have you tried using a full rotation/spec in a parse? That may help you better ascertain the overall effect rather than just testing Sharp Bomb on its own. You were also wondering if you can get more acc from the tree so you can get more surge. Have you tried changing gear?

Also how do you get torparse to only show 1 fight? Did you log in between parses to get a new file?

Also can you describe the different specs? So far I understand

Sharpshooter: ?
Saboteur: AoE
DF: Single Target

I know a Sniper in APEX is running Engineering/Lethality Hybrid and is second highest DPS after a Marauder and has to be guarded.

No point going through the entire rotation.
We weren't certain wether it would be worth it when thinking it didn't affect the bleed. Seeing as how it does, not taking IA will be 100% certain loss in DPS by a large amount.


Sharpshooter: Single Target burst (burst element comes from Burst Volley 1/4th of the fight)
Saboteur: AoE
DF: Single Target DoTs

Most noticeable difference between SS and DF is that it's easier to switch targets in SS.
That and SS is less forgiving for not using your abilities as soon as they're off cd.

There's also SS/sab and sab/DF hybrids that work quite well.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:24 pm

Derpy wrote:
Back to your original question then. From the parse it owuld seem that IA affects the bleeds of Sharp Bomb.

Have you tried using a full rotation/spec in a parse? That may help you better ascertain the overall effect rather than just testing Sharp Bomb on its own. You were also wondering if you can get more acc from the tree so you can get more surge. Have you tried changing gear?

Also how do you get torparse to only show 1 fight? Did you log in between parses to get a new file?

Also can you describe the different specs? So far I understand

Sharpshooter: ?
Saboteur: AoE
DF: Single Target

I know a Sniper in APEX is running Engineering/Lethality Hybrid and is second highest DPS after a Marauder and has to be guarded.
Luna summed it up pretty well but I'll reiterate for support.

The full rotation won't be necessary as IA effects a few rotational abilities, not only Shrap Bomb. Sab Charge and XS Flyby are abilities I keep in my full DPS rotation and those would suffer a significant loss as well as Shrap Bomb.

I didn't try swapping gear as 1 point is equal to about 1 enhancement, and at most I would drop is 2 acc enhancements for surge which would boost my surge ~114 (pushing my rating to +350). As we can see from the parse, despite W/O IA having 4% higher crit hits, it still was 4k damage behind the with IA parse. My crit rating is well over the acceptable mark (sitting at +500) and I was fully buffed. Stacking two enhancements of Surge still wouldn't compensate for the 10% gap of raw damage.

However, dropping one point in IA in order to get one Surge enhancement may be worth it as I'd only lose 5% damage off of Shrap bomb, which the 12.4% margin my parses show is almost negligible. I may toy with this soon, but I still have the feeling that 3/3 in IA will prove to be superior as it doesn't rely on chance to show results.

To get single fights on file what I would do is Enable Combat Logging, parse, disable Combat Logging, and then Enable Combat logging again. Every time you Enable Combat Logging in SWTOR's options it starts a new log, no need to relog.

Luna hit the nose on the tree specs. This advanced class guide is pretty good and stays updated. It should be able to clear confusion, but if you have more questions feel free to ask me as that guide doesn't detail everything.

The most popular GS hybrid is Sab/DF aka Engineering/Lethality. The bottom half of the two trees synergize well as they both boost AOEs and DOTs abilities. This spec also retains good burst and flexibility. However, in terms of Ops wide support it is the worst of all the choices. Defensive abilities receive no boost, the spec is very energy heavy and has little in the way of energy savers. It's DPS can match that of the other three specs, but I 'd feel bad using it in an Ops as the only thing it can do is the same damage as other specs without helping out in other ways. If you play it the better than the other spec, play it, but if your DPS in the hybrid matches that of a full spec in another I'd pick the full spec.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:13 am

Guess what spec the top gunslinger/sniper DPS is in 3/5 boss fight in 8m TfB HM on torparse?
Then it's a Leth/Eng on Kephess and a Leth on Dread Masters =)

SS is best spec ^^
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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:23 am

crazyBE wrote:
Guess what spec the top gunslinger/sniper DPS is in 3/5 boss fight in 8m TfB HM on torparse?
Then it's a Leth/Eng on Kephess and a Leth on Dread Masters =)

SS is best spec ^^
Good for them, and how is this relevant for IA vs. Sharpshooter talent?

Side note:

Generally, I don't pay attention to Torparse's top parses. To me it's just a tool to better analyze my DPS and share evidence with others. A lot of the top DPS is just the BiS people trying their damnedest to get the highest numbers by creating an environment that boosts their damage the most (e.g. Gunnery Commandos, plenty of Sentinels).

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:03 pm

Fluttershy wrote:
crazyBE wrote:
Guess what spec the top gunslinger/sniper DPS is in 3/5 boss fight in 8m TfB HM on torparse?
Then it's a Leth/Eng on Kephess and a Leth on Dread Masters =)

SS is best spec ^^
Good for them, and how is this relevant for IA vs. Sharpshooter talent?

Side note:

Generally, I don't pay attention to Torparse's top parses. To me it's just a tool to better analyze my DPS and share evidence with others. A lot of the top DPS is just the BiS people trying their damnedest to get the highest numbers by creating an environment that boosts their damage the most (e.g. Gunnery Commandos, plenty of Sentinels).

It's not relevant I just felt like posting something.

On another side note which has nothing to do with it:

What gun do you think looks best in your offhand?
Just can't find any on GTN that I like.
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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:18 pm

crazyBE wrote:
Fluttershy wrote:
crazyBE wrote:
Guess what spec the top gunslinger/sniper DPS is in 3/5 boss fight in 8m TfB HM on torparse?
Then it's a Leth/Eng on Kephess and a Leth on Dread Masters =)

SS is best spec ^^
Good for them, and how is this relevant for IA vs. Sharpshooter talent?

Side note:

Generally, I don't pay attention to Torparse's top parses. To me it's just a tool to better analyze my DPS and share evidence with others. A lot of the top DPS is just the BiS people trying their damnedest to get the highest numbers by creating an environment that boosts their damage the most (e.g. Gunnery Commandos, plenty of Sentinels).

It's not relevant I just felt like posting something.

On another side note which has nothing to do with it:

What gun do you think looks best in your offhand?
Just can't find any on GTN that I like.
My main-hand is the Black Nebula Blaster and my off-hand is the A-300 Needler that you get for choosing the light option at the end of Chapter One. Yes, I saved it for that long. If you want another blaster that looks similar to the Needler, there is a blaster I found on the GTN once that has the same body and scope of the Nebula but on a smaller scale and it's bronze. I can't remember the name but it sounded devious or evil. I'll let you know if I come up with anything. Oh, and Striker blasters (they drop in Black Hole heroic) look pretty cool too.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:31 pm

hmm I'll see if I can get the one from BH dropped tomorrow
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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:14 pm

I looked them up on the GTN and the BH blaster I was talking about is the Shrieker, not Striker. Also, the other weapon I was talking about was Two-Finger's Revenge.

Here is a screenshot of the Two-Finger blaster, it's in Goopy's left-hand.

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PostSubject: Re: [Outdated] DF: Independent Anarchy or Sharpshooter?   Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:40 pm

Fluttershy wrote:
I looked them up on the GTN and the BH blaster I was talking about is the Shrieker, not Striker. Also, the other weapon I was talking about was Two-Finger's Revenge.

Here is a screenshot of the Two-Finger blaster, it's in Goopy's left-hand.

Yeah after searching for something on GTN I found the Two-Finger's as well and bought it yesterday because it matches the cartel gun =)
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